Libertarian meat eater, right wing in the sense of conservative with a small c.

Tuesday, 20 May 2008

An overdue idea

There are as any fule no a number of problems with the UN. As an international talking shop the UN has few peers, sadly when it comes to doing anything more than talking you run into problems. This can hardly be surprising, if you set up a system where vastly disparate values are represented then you are unlikely to get a coherent voice.

If the charter of the UN was confined to the preamble it would be an admirably brief document but even in this section we run into difficulties:

to save succeeding generations from the scourge of war, which twice in our lifetime has brought untold sorrow to mankind, and


to reaffirm faith in fundamental human rights, in the dignity and worth of the human person, in the equal rights of men and women and of nations large and small, and

to establish conditions under which justice and respect for the obligations arising from treaties and other sources of international law can be maintained, and

to promote social progress and better standards of life in larger freedom,

The first clause is sadly unobtainable at the moment and the last can mean whatever you wish it to. The second and third clauses are possible but only in a specific model of government, Democracy (I am aware that there may be some hypothetical mode of governance where they are achievable without democracy but I have yet to see it).

So it is interesting that McCain (and others) have postulated the idea of a "League of Democracies". I think it would be a worthwhile project, simply to help coordinate the response of democracies to regimes less favourable to the human condition. The UN could remain but be acknowledged as what it is, a convenient place for negotiators to meet rather than an international force.

The League would not always agree and nor should it be binding in matters such as war or sanction (though it should require those who disagree to state their reasons publicly).

Those governments that fail to meet the criteria of democracy have no interest in obtaining the second and third clauses for their or anyone else's countries. It's time we stopped pretending that they did and freely condemn them.

9 comments:

John B said...

(I am aware that there may be some hypothetical mode of governance where they are achievable without democracy but I have yet to see it).

Hong Kong 1976-1997? Also tempted to mention Cuba, if only for troll value (although per my next point, Cuba does have a lot more respect for human rights than probably 50% of the places that call themselves 'democracies'...)

The League of Democracies is a nice idea, but falls down on the same grouds as humanitarian intervention - how the hell do you decide what is a democracy? Either anywhere which holds elections is in ("hello Iran! hello Kazakhstan!"), or the definition becomes incredibly subjective and will inevitably end up meaning "people who support the US".

Tomrat said...

John B,

"how the hell do you decide what is a democracy?"

How about - "A country that allows its people to elect its leaders in a free and fair election, and which can be monitored by independant groups in the external members of the league of democracies without impediment"

That makes it:

- Open
- Clear
- Honest

Here hoping McCain wins and tries this as I am sick to my back teeth of the UN having some sort of moral mandate on the world, despite being one of the most corrupt supranational bodies in history.

John B said...

"A country that allows its people to elect its leaders in a free and fair election, and which can be monitored by independant groups in the external members of the league of democracies without impediment"

OK, now define "free", "fair" and "without impediment" (clue: all of them can mean various different things depending on what you want them to mean, and will be interpreted as such).

Any attempt do do this sort of thing *will* reduce to a League Of Me And My Mates, as does any attempt to split Good People from Bad People, but it will be a Leage Of Me And My Mates that believes it's the League Of All That's True And Right And People Who Disagree With Us Are Objectively Evil. Which is a recipe for doing terrible things under the belief that they're right [see: Iraq 2003-08].

The good thing about the UN is that at least it avoids that kind of spurious nonsense - the only criteria for joining is "being a state" not "being a good state", everybody knows that, and everything that it does is within those limitations. Let's keep it that way, and then keep the Me And My Mates Clubs to places where that's explicitly the case, like the EU and NATO.

John B said...

Some concrete examples - would you let them into your gang?

1) the despotic PM has refused to allow external electoral observers and is suspected of widespread fraud

2) the elections are widely internationally monitored, with limited levels of fraud reported which would not materially affect the result. However, one of the candidates is backed by the retiring president and has received disporportionate support from state-controlled media

3) the elections are internationally monitored and fraud is low. However, candidates affiliated to the former PM achieve greater coverage in national media, and those who disparage the former PM are fined or even jailed

4) a crooked tycoon who controls the majority of non-state media runs a massively financed campaign including relentless propaganda in his favour (state TV in this country is run at arm's length and covers the election on a neutral basis). The crooked tycoon wins.

5) the elections are internationally monitored as fair and free in themselves, but the candidates are pre-vetted by a committee of political activist judges

6) the region-by-region political system causes the the nationwide election comes down to a few thousand contested votes, which are awarded to one candidate by a court controlled by political appointees of the same party, making him overall winner. The other candidate wins the popular vote nationwide by a large margin, and it later transpires that he have won the region in question if the court had allowed recounts to take place.

yokel said...

However you define democracy, it will currently exclude the UK and the EU Empire from membership of the League of Democracies. That might shame the politicians of both sides to do something about it, but then they might take it as a badge of pride. We are in for a prolonged rough ride.

Don said...

Well put, John B.

A league of Democracies is all fine and well, but what would be the point of it? The one benefit of the UN is that with every country in the building, international disputes can at least be given an airing. It forces the 'bad guys' to answer for themselves, and if they are full of sh*t, then we all see it for what it is.

Tomrat - how would the league of democracies inspections be and different from the UN? And how would the league of democracies avoid the corruption that the UN suffers from? And as for the moral mandate - that's the whole point in having your own little club! It's so you can say 'we are better than you lot' and 'we are right'.

The problem with the UN is that it is almost impossible to get a mandate on anything, because diplomacy and politics will always get in the way - every country usually has some angle they want to work on. Foreign policy is pure national self interest - whether for a direct or indirect gain. Look at NATO in the Cold War for example - united for one simple purpose, and yet still riven with politics.

Rename our international band of mates as we like, but let's not delude ourselves that we will be doing anything more than re-inventing the UN wheel. It will still remain an organization riven with factions and politics, moralizing, fraud and cynicism. The only arguable difference would be of degree of factions, politics, moralizing, fraud and cynicism.

Thud said...

Anything has to be better than the UN..it demeans us as a nation being part of it.Besides its rampant corruption and co opting by radical nations, its inaction causes the death of countless thousands.

will said...

情趣用品,情趣,情色,成人,A片,自拍,情趣用品,情趣,色情,成人影片,色情影片,免費A片,情趣用品,情趣,成人網站,A片下載,日本AV,做愛,情趣用品,情趣,美女交友,A片,辣妹視訊,情色視訊,情趣用品,情趣,色情聊天室,聊天室,AV,成人電影,A片,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣商品,情趣,情趣情色,A片,AIO,AV,日本AV,色情A片,AV女優,A漫,免費A片,A片下載,情色A片,哈啦聊天室,UT聊天室,聊天室,豆豆聊天室,色情聊天室,尋夢園聊天室,080視訊聊天室,080聊天室,080苗栗人聊天室,免費視訊聊天,上班族聊天室,080中部人聊天室,視訊聊天室,視訊聊天,成人聊天室,一夜情聊天室,辣妹視訊,情色視訊,成人,成人影片,成人光碟,成人影城,自拍情趣用品,A片,AIO,AV,AV女優,A漫,免費A片,日本AV,寄情築園小遊戲,情色貼圖,色情小說,情色文學,色情,色情遊戲,一葉情貼圖片區,色情網站,色情影片,微風成人, 嘟嘟成人網,成人,成人貼圖,18成人,成人影城,成人圖片,成人影片,UT聊天室,聊天室,豆豆聊天室,尋夢園聊天室,080聊天室,080苗栗人聊天室,080視訊聊天室,視訊聊天室情趣用品,A片,aio,av,av女優,a漫,免費a片,aio交友愛情館,a片免費看,a片下載,本土自拍,自拍,愛情公寓,情色,情色貼圖,色情小說,情色文學,色情,寄情築園小遊戲,色情遊戲,嘟嘟情人色網,一葉情貼圖片區,色情影片,情色網,色情網站,微風成人,嘟嘟成人網,成人,18成人,成人影城,成人圖片,成人貼圖,成人圖片區,成人小說,成人電影情趣用品,情趣,情趣商品,自拍,UT聊天室,聊天室,豆豆聊天室,哈啦聊天室,尋夢園聊天室,080聊天室,080苗栗人聊天室,H漫,A片,AV,AV女優,A漫,免費A片,愛情公寓,情色,情色貼圖,色情小說,情色小說,情色文學,色情,寄情築園小遊戲,色情遊戲,SEX,微風成人,嘟嘟成人網,成人,18成人,成人影城,成人圖片,成人貼圖,成人圖片區情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣,情趣,情趣商品,A片,A片,A片,A片,A片,A片,中古車,二手車,情色小說,色情,情色視訊,寄情築園小遊戲,AIO交友愛情館,色情遊戲,情色交友,嘟嘟情人色網,言情小說,一葉情貼圖片區,情色論壇,色情影片,情色網,色情漫畫,UT聊天室,聊天室,豆豆聊天室,哈啦聊天室,尋夢園聊天室,視訊聊天室,080聊天室,視訊聊天,美女交友,視訊做愛,情色視訊,免費視訊A片,A片,A片下載,做愛,成人電影,18成人,日本A片,情色小說,情色電影,成人影城,自拍,情色論壇,成人論壇,情色貼圖,情色,免費A片,成人,成人光碟

will said...

A片,A片,A片,A片,A片,A片情趣商品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣,情趣,情趣用品,情趣商品,情趣用品,情趣,情趣,情趣用品,情趣商品,情趣用品,情趣,情趣,情趣用品,,情趣,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣用品.情趣,情趣,情趣,情趣,視訊聊天室,情趣,情趣用品,情趣,情趣用品,情趣用品,情趣麻將,台灣彩卷,六合彩開獎號碼,運動彩卷,六合彩,遊戲,線上遊戲,cs online,搓麻將,矽谷麻將,明星三缺一, 橘子町,麻將大悶鍋,台客麻將,公博,game,,中華職棒,麗的線上小遊戲,國士無雙麻將,麻將館,賭博遊戲,威力彩,威力彩開獎號碼,龍龍運動網,史萊姆,史萊姆好玩遊戲,史萊姆第一個家,史萊姆好玩遊戲區,樂透彩開獎號碼,遊戲天堂,天堂,好玩遊戲,遊戲基地,無料遊戲王,好玩遊戲區,麻將遊戲,好玩遊戲區,小遊戲,電玩快打情趣用品,情趣,A片,AIO,AV,AV女優,A漫,免費A片,情色,情色貼圖,色情小說,情色文學,色情,寄情竹園小遊戲,色情遊戲,AIO交友愛情館,色情影片,情趣內衣,情趣睡衣,性感睡衣,情趣商品,微風成人,嘟嘟成人網,成人,18成人,成人影城,成人圖片,成人貼圖,成人圖片區,UT聊天室,聊天室,豆豆聊天室 ,哈啦聊天室,尋夢園聊天室,聊天室尋夢園,080苗栗人聊天室,080聊天室,視訊交友網,視訊借錢,黃金,黃金回收,黃金價格,黃金買賣,當舖,中古車,二手車A片,A片,成人網站,成人影片,色情,情色網,情色,AV,AV女優,成人影城,成人,色情A片,日本AV,免費成人影片,成人影片,SEX,免費A片,A片下載,免費A片下載,做愛,情色A片,色情影片,H漫,A漫,18成人,情色電影,自拍,成人電影a片,色情影片,情色電影,a片,色情,情色網,情色,av,av女優,成人影城,成人,色情a片,日本av,免費成人影片,成人影片,情色a片,sex,免費a片,a片下載,免費a片下載,成人網站,做愛,自拍A片,A片,A片下載,做愛,成人電影,18成人,日本A片,情色小說,情色電影,成人影城,自拍,情色論壇,成人論壇,情色貼圖,情色,免費A片,成人,成人光碟18成人,成人聊天室,成人電影,成人圖片,成人貼圖,成人圖片區,成人影片,成人文章,成人小說,微風成人區,成人交友,成人文學,成人漫畫,成人遊戲,免費成人影片 ,成人論壇,愛情公寓,情色,色情網站,情色A片,色情小說,情色文學